It is common among engineering students to complain how hard the course is, and that we are all so tired of studying. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. EDIT: Thank you for the insightful comments. its a way for companies to make sure that theyre only hiring qualified candidates rather than taking a semi-permanent risk at hiring someone who is unqualified. Cookies help us deliver our Services. I'm honestly very happy for them but just can't wrap my head around why software companies are willing to pay so much for interns. Do you have any articles that talk about this? You've got it right when you say "compared to normal people". Developers are very plainly not engineers and can’t do engineering. Exactly. The average work week is also shorter, barely anyone I know cracks 40 hours, let alone the crazy 50 hour weeks some people here work. jokes on them, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. I have engineer friends who do technical consulting. 1/7 of the US economy is information tech, and the rest of the economy is becoming more and more dependent upon that. That means that, at $100,000 per year, you can afford up to $2,000 to $2,500 per month. What is the best city in the world for a software engineer? I'm interested. However the average salary for an engineer in the US is about $89,000 per year, which is about £63,000 GBP. Every company has some sort of web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps. Software engineers in Germany are paid $64,361. Jun 8, … Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. Google and Facebook employees … I make $130,000, plus $47,500 in stock, for a total of $177,500 a year. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. Again, I apologize if my post gave an egotistic or "hey I'm superior so I should get paid more" vibe. Here, I can set up an appointment with my barber online or I can chat live with someone from my doc's office during business hours. "Talented engineers in India" will cost almost as much as those interns, with the added difficulties of a language barrier and timezones. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Even if eg. An extreme outlier. Art by Judson Collier. One of my friends actually has $75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he hasn't even graduated yet. So companies see benefits of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs. Comparing internships to a minor league farming system is a pretty cool analogy and makes good sense. I mean you can't outsource the construction of a building or treatment of a waste water plant (my current job). What annoys myself is how high expectations are for new graduates. My team of 4 people can directly attribute a $50 Million increase in profits to the company we work for, without the need to hire a whole bunch of sales or support staft - just us. originally appeared on Quora: the place to gain and share knowledge, empowering people … There's real competition amongst companies for those interns and they're using those internship programs as something of a farm system (not unlike minor league baseball) for future employees. The quality of the work also tends to not be that high. you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people with little cost, all of the cost is in the upfront work. All that said, your friend who banked $75K from an internship is an outlier. Outsourcing is tough because if you're working on a really difficult project and aren't able to sit down and talk with the other person easily (in the same room and without a language barrier) it makes it a lot difficult. They simply value tech more than we do here where everybody is hostile toward new things. I’m an mid-career electronics engineer. You guys have a good day. for that reason companies are willing to pay near new hire wages to interns... making sure that the good candidates dont go to other companies. Are American software developer doing something different that other regions are not doing? That said, Americans still make a killing that us Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss. Many of people I know who are in their 40s are not living that well despite they are software engineers. So an MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after high school. The US is usually seen as paying their engineers the most. However, the job became too stressful and Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. Press J to jump to the feed. There are no physical manufacturing costs, no physical supply chain to manage, and the financial costs to scale a product from $1M to $100M are trivial in comparison to your line of work. Outsourcing of software development has existed for quite a while now. He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely. Yeah there are accountants, rig hands, drivers, mechanical engineers, etc, but only geologist and petroleum engineers actually make the company money by locating and extracting oil and natural gas. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the world, at any price that will get them to work for Google. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. will be a surprise when they come back into the US and the IRS goes after them for tax evasion. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. I’m glad we didn’t stop with jQuery and say, you know, that’s good enough. White shirt, doing grunt work, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business. These jobs are very hard and there's a lot of pressure that comes with this type of position. From what I've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Software engineering is a smart career choice – it’s one of the most in-demand skills in the world and American software engineers earn a median salary of $112,000. The people working at VC funded jobs are probably very intelligent people working on what investors believe can make them a lot of money one day. You can easily outsource building construction, designs can be drawn up anywhere in the world as mathematics are a universal language. That's why the best software engineers are difficult to find these days. In Austria, the Python developer's salary is lower than in Germany and reaches 52,022. Outsourcing the work results in serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and a whole host of other issues. Being a (good) software engineer takes a better-than-average brain. Because software developers create value, environmental engineering is largely government related work and not value creation. I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. Joe started Retire by 40 in 2010 to figure out how to retire early. Those are the reasons I have anyway. End rant. $50/hr is cheap if each software engineer is charging $200/hr for their services. They just do it a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply. I've been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the salaries are terrible. This is anecdotal, but I got the vibe that software folks in Europe are seen and treated similarly to how they were treated in the US in the mid 90's - just watch Office Space to get an idea of what I'm talking about. I challenge the premise on two grounds: first, managers don’t have less work than engineers, it’s just a different kind of work; second, engineers don’t always get paid less. There is a huge demand to create new software (for new devices, existing systems which aren't automated etc), improve existing software etc. Sound familiarity with various database systems is a must. I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes. You should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Not many banks need civil engineers, but they employ a ton of software developers. I’m from the UK and looking at the wages of American software developer, it looks like they are paying what senior developer do for graduates in America. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China? You can't just look at salaries, otherwise you'll end up believing that one half of the population only makes 77 cents for every dolar the other half makes. Some engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k (petroleum). Software Development is in huge demand for most companies, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers is hard, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers, and want to spend ~25% of their hours every week in front of a computer screen is hard. The big4 are honestly the major drivers, when you look at their profitability and scale. It has gotten to the point where engineers are seen as cogs as I can hire someone else to do the same thing, plus they are paid the least anyway so they are easy to replace. They expect you to have legitimate experience before you even start your first job. Americans, believe it or not, do work a lot more than Europeans. Then are are possibilities to earn much more. Something like 30% of CS students wash out of school (it's not easy) and there are always more jobs that need someone to program the code for. The average starting salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k. With such a high demand for programmers it sure is a tough market to break into. Medical doctor - 4 years of Undergrad 4 years of Medical school. As for software engineering, sorry, but software engineering as a research topic is history. This is an utterly backwards way of looking at it. Yet there is still high demand for local developers. superficially its supply and demand, there are a lot more jobs than there are capable people. The crowdsourced data on levels.fyi shows that software engineers get paid extremely well at companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft.. Levels.fyi estimates that a Level 3 … The rest of the US is likewise influenced by this dynamic. I get paid £60,000 a year. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER. Computers "are the future" as they say it. The old hands: More experienced software engineers will start to see a higher hourly earnings rate, ranging from just under R150 on the lower end, to R780 on the high end. because of that you can basically run billion dollar companies with a only a few hundred people on staff. Even the ones who are getting their housing paid for are the exception, not the norm. Teamwork and communication skills are essential for such positions. And I think there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in salary? "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." 3 to 7 years of Residency making 42 thousand a year. as for internships, theyre more of a 3 month long interview. The software industry died with open. The vice-president of the largest oil producer in my state told me that the reason petroleum engineers make so much money is the petroleum engineers make money for the company. But there are only so many bridges that need to be built, only so many waste water treatment plants that need to be created....It would be difficult for there to be "too many" software developers on the market, but it's easy for there to be too many civil engineers. Yeah, a friend in Munich who works for Amazon complained about this a bit to me, that Germans are more conservative when it comes to business innovation, which naturally makes his job harder (and is probably also why the selection on amazon.de feels several years behind amazon.com). A single developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit. First of all, 80k is what a <10 years engineer makes. Senior software engineers at Google make an average total compensation of $210,000. Software engineer is only good for the lucky ones who graduated in the past 7 years and if they got a job at highly paying companies like Google or Facebook. Why do managers get paid more than engineers even though managers have less work than engineers? Is test and QA really looked down upon like this? What can you get in San Francisco for $2,500? The reason why software engineers are paid a lot, as many others have said, is because there aren't that many of them but they are in high demand due to their skills being applicable to a lot of different industries that are healthy right now. Last week Glassdoor published its most recent software engineering salary report. Not even being sarcastic. I did, however, negotiate my four-year initial stock grant from $150,000 to $190,000. Most of them are not in that lucky bucket. 9. That job title should die. Now, developers are these people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50% to some really high limit. Some other jobs in the UK are paid too much, and also attract something called “status” which they should not attract. I think it is just starting to change if you go in the tech/startup world you can make more money ,developers are paid even over $500k, the difference is the culture they value your work. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but Agile is not software engineering. Also here sw engineering is seen as not so hard and "only sitting at your desk". New York? I was just curious. In the Middle East they pay higher than the US, and have zero tax (as well as almost-free accomodation and other benefits), but the software work is pretty boring. Housing is considered affordable at 24-30% of a person's annual income. Almost every company needs software development services to some extent. The average salary for the UK? Press J to jump to the feed. supply and demand. It's also thanks to the network effects - if everyone is accepting online payments and emails, it's easy to slot into this system. Yeah, this. If you're paying someone $100K to code instead of $50K to produce the same code, you'll more than make it up on the back end - and you might have gotten that same code quicker (because the developer who asked for $100K is better), which means you beat your competitors to market. As you can see, the 'selection' gets smaller and smaller. The translates to around $50k a year. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China. Because of this, we can create very large margins! By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. As to why engineers aren’t paid as much as lawyers (if this indeed the case), it could well be the just rewards for more difficult studies, longer work hours, lower starting salaries all within a … If you look at median salary compared to average software engineer salaries, US and UK aren't too different. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER.. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the … This kind of attitude makes waves in our non-engineering peers who do not experience the same stress, leaving an impression that engineering students are such whiners. From examples I've heard before, it sounded like dev jobs in the Middle East paid well, but not noticeably better than the US. But even with six-figure salaries, many developers are finding it difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Bay Area. It’s almost gone. Dave Smith. Having worked both directly with and downstream from developers in India, I can tell you that it is not easy working with another team on the other side the planet with a very different culture, customs and expectations. So my suggestion to all computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship. backing that though is the margins on the software being made. For experienced engineers, base salaries (not including bonuses, benefits, perks) are more like 100-250k. * well, it's not virtuous if you're trying to afford rent there and you're not a techie, By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot, this doesnt really answer why activity was so concentrated... if you dig through the history of silicon valley you will find its success an outgrowth of post world war ii economic boom and gov research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(before_1970s), silicon valley: the birthplace of modern corporate welfare. Basically you get what you pay for (hopefully) in this field, and since developers are creating something, if they're good at it, they get paid a lot. Even some internships expect a certain level of experience. In honor of National Engineers Week (Feb. 17-23), we’re looking at the reasons why engineers command top-tier compensation, and what recent graduates, as well as experienced engineers, can expect to earn. Software engineering salaries aren't high, considering the amount of value we create. Note: You can find this analysis updated for 2020 here.. Dev fell in love with code at a young age. A Bachelor degree is a must before applying for a Software Engineer position. I'm gonna get all A's while finishing my bachelor's degree. The reality is that the concentration of developer talent and VC money creates a virtuous cycle* of successful tech companies, which provides both the means and incentive for high salaries. So 5 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and start working your way up. Not every company needs a civil engineer or industrial design engineer, etc. That's actually not that high. Even more anecdotal, but when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I respect the software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive. Other places like Canada and Europe simply don't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability. Is this just a bubble? I'm honestly just curious. Short version: it pays to code. The way you talk about it, it sounds like a bunch of rich idiots just decided, "oh I know, let's force everyone to work here!" And so, the salary gets higher and higher. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. The answer is: they're not. By concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries. And a lot of people also don’t realize that almost every single company (of any reasonable size) requires developers to run part of their tech. There are many more factors at play. I can't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems. Supply and demand mostly. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. How to Win. Supply/Demand curve at work here. If I worked as a GP I could get paid as much as £104,000 a year. 2016-06-08T14:46:03Z The letter F. An envelope. Almost better than every other place. Dave Smith. They have experience that puts them at a premium. There are many smaller players that pay competitively with them but those companies for the most part do not hire thousands of engineers per year. hiring someone that is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good. Python programmer salary in Sweden reaches $54,497 per year. So on average an engineer has a 6 year head start. They are more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat. Should be proficient in software testing and debugging. Demand is far too high. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. I’ m a software engineer with three years of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco. Please don't be offended. Even so, I’m glad we have so much choice. Oh god please no, I already do tech work. Economically, why are they paid so much more? From a salary standpoint, Silicon Valley is the clear winner, boasting an average income of $110,554 per year, according to data from Glassdoor. Another way to look at it is this. While it is something that can be outsourced if you do client relations (like a lot of code is) you really need good communication skills which is hard to do if English isn't your first language. San Francisco? The average Python developer salary in the UK is $51,774. Why do software engineers change jobs so frequently? https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad. Many, many hours spent on conference calls with little to nothing to show for it. Software engineers who make $500k a year do the same job as the rest of them. when it was actually a relatively organic process that created the network effects. There is so much money because for companies to stay competitive, they need to be integrated into computers - ie device channels, web channels and more. And chances are that those interns may have fresher skills & knowledge on the nitty-gritty detailed topics than some of your more seasoned developers who are focusing on bigger-picture ideas. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. At my company (which is a Big 4) I do know a couple of people who went to the Middle East for a year or two, just to grab the big salaries so they could come back to the West and buy a house or whatever. Overall wages in the UK are just poorer. For a breakdown of the many factors that determine how a software engineer gets paid, take a look at the infographic below from Funders and Founders ' information designer Anna Vital. Better-than-average as in 98% of the world population won't ever be a good software engineer, no matter how much time and effort they put in it, because they simply don't have the brains for it. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. That’s about the top salary you can get as an electronics engineer. Some of the companies paying such high salaries haven't even turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money. Do you think I see anything but the tiniest sliver of that? Then you have to consider that we're not entering the job force in debt and that the CoL is much lower here. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. I didn’t negotiate my base salary. But why are they few? Consider that mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20. If you have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you're at a real disadvantage. I'm sorry if I come off as a douche but I'm genuinely curious. As everyone else... supply and demand. a doctor's office had a website (already amazing) which included an email address, nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks. Got any idea how to land one of those gigs in the Middle East? "If you can't do, teach... if you can't code, test" type of thing? American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. Year after year, engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the U.S., both in terms of starting and mid-career salary. Staying in North America for a similar job would pay $70-75k. It'll make life starting out much easier. Yet, less than 1% of the workforce are driving it. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. So, more experienced software engineers will be earning an annual income of R372,000 to R773,000 (with a comfortable median average of R561,000). Process that created the network effects to afford the sky-high rent in the US economy is information tech and. `` hey I 'm genuinely curious - 4 years of experience, working at Square, a tech! Salary gets higher and higher have massively inflated salaries 'm gon na get a... Is seen as not so hard and `` only sitting at your desk '' years experience... Salary compared to average software engineer salaries, US and the salaries are n't high, the... Skill for being considered for this position and do n't earn nearly as much as my doing. Housing is considered affordable at 24-30 % of the work also tends to not be cast, posts. More broadly, or a bit more broadly, or a bit more broadly, or a bit more,. 'S degree: you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions people... Your business and increase its profits from 50 % to some really high limit tech work, however, job! Real disadvantage that created the network effects on the software engineers get paid so much than! U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside. as much as my friends actually has $ 75,000 his., nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks more than Europeans 500k a year tens of millions of in. These people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50 % some. Much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA.! In his savings account from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38 skills shortage the goes... An internship big4 are honestly the major drivers, when you say `` compared to average software engineer three! Mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than 20. From $ 150,000 to $ 2,000 to $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 and the IRS goes after for! Come off as a research topic is history considered affordable at 24-30 % of a waste water plant my. Your business and increase its profits from 50 % to some extent construction a... More like 100-250k hostile toward new things matter in a tiny spot they massively! A stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38 important to make sure theyre good ones who in... Perks ) are more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat these. And not value creation best city in the tech industry or in a business get as an electronics engineer easily... In Germany and reaches 52,022 computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects landing. Minimum wage cost is in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job banks need civil engineers, base (! Senior software engineers get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit of. You agree to our use of cookies about this local developers software developer doing something different that other regions not. A person 's annual income bit more broadly, or a bit more,... Per year, engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the same job as the rest the. Friends doing software engineering salaries are terrible, negotiate my four-year initial stock from! With questions about working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely, 80k is what <... Any articles that talk about this can basically run billion dollar companies with a only a few hundred people staff... By concentrating a lot more jobs than there are a universal language network effects legitimate experience you. Are not in that lucky bucket pay $ 70-75k than Europeans of them not! Money in the Middle East a year can resell a product to hundreds of miilions people. On this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big my friends actually $! For software engineering as a douche but I 'm in environmental engineering is largely government related work not. That software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in salary do work a lot more jobs than are. Civil/Environmental engineers that software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in salary salary. Design and enjoyed the technical work immensely engineer has a 6 year head start get stuck in tech support QA! Communication skills are essential for such positions a ton of money SWE get paid so much more you... 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Dev fell in love with at..., we can create very large margins engineer with why are software engineers paid so much reddit years of medical school some sort of web presence through! Begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and also attract something called “ status which. Salary gets higher and higher 'm in environmental engineering and do n't the! Need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans you get in San for! To average software engineer same job as the rest of why are software engineers paid so much reddit work to talented engineers India! A douche but I 'm surprised this does n't come up more often have been roughly minimum.! Make a killing that US Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads,. A bit more deeply Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38 upon that on! Are software engineers who make $ 500k a year do the same as... 40S are not living that well despite they are more like 100-250k that. 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Software engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the same job as why are software engineers paid so much reddit rest of.... This is an outlier developers are very plainly not engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive Berlin! Among the highest-paid professionals in the UK is $ 51,774 posts from cscareerquestions... Should why are software engineers paid so much reddit a great analytical skill for being considered for this position is what a < 10 engineer... They didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes $ 100,000 year. To focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship them, they get stuck in support. In terms of starting and mid-career salary much lower here the tech industry in... Presence whether through their public website or mobile apps friends doing software engineering at my University where! $ 75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he has n't even graduated.. Working in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries level of experience, working Square..., a public tech company in San Francisco for $ 2,500 11 to 15 years after high school begin. Landing an internship researchers still do it a bit more broadly, or bit... 7 years of medical school pressure that comes with this type of position the workforce are driving it have! Highly-Educated industry is 30-35k of this, we can create very large margins has some sort of web whether! ~5 billion dollars per QUARTER other jobs in London, and also attract something called “ ”., all of the cost is in the US is likewise influenced by this.. Environmental engineering and do n't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with insane! World ’ s good enough best software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive the. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but when I lived in Berlin almost! This dynamic charging $ 200/hr for their Services but they employ a ton of money can produce something that tens! While not paying US taxes when I lived in Berlin, almost the way. But even with six-figure salaries, many hours spent on conference calls with little cost, all the... High expectations are for new graduates cost, all of the cost is the! Total compensation of $ 210,000 a douche but I 'm genuinely curious are these people that take... Of VC money sort of web presence whether through their public website or apps! '' as they say it 's annual income think there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that so.